maudlin of the well interview thread five Expose: I want to talk a little bit about the concept of the epiphany. Being a composer, I can definitely understand this moment where it all falls together, so to speak, where confusion gives way to purpose and focus. Would you consider the epiphany as something of a paradigm change? Have these vast changes in the way you perceive art and music been fairly common over the years? Toby: I definitely do agree. I guess the path to any sort of enlightenment of fulfillment of thelema is just small private realizations day after day. Eventually a big one happens, it'll turn your direction a bit, and then the small ones continue. There have been countless instances where I've realized something and it has drastically changed my perspective on life, and I usually look back on them and think about how wrong these realizations were, but then about how right they were because they led up to where I am now and all that sort of thing, and I believe I'm where I need to be at the moment.* As far as music or any other kind of art goes, it just relates to your purpose, if you are an artist. So there's no separation between the realizations that impact your life and the ones that impact your art, because they are co-dependent on one another. They happen to me all the time but they all need to be there. Often you can look back to a period before a certain realization and totally hate the way you were before it, and you're happy you're different now. The hate, rather than seeing why it was necessary, must be your lower self, refusing to let go of the ego. The higher is what realizes why the sucky you was necessary. Relating to music, maybe I don't like the old motW music a shred, but it needs to be there for me to learn. *Sam: Well I'm going to be contrary again and say that this concept of thelema, or "divine purpose" or what-have-you doesn't terribly agree with me. The idea of a right and wrong in terms of artistic development isn't something I believe in, and motW's music actually confirms that thought to me. I just don't believe there's a right and a wrong in musical composition or any kind of art. Certainly some things work and others don't, but that's far from the same thing. I worked at a recording studio briefly and the one thing that always struck me was how bands would make decisions about what sounds to use, or how to arrange a song, and as they're going into it I thought, "That's wrong, that's never going to fit." But usually it did. Does that mean that my version of how the song should have gone wouldn't have worked, wouldn't have fit, wouldn't have been "right"? That idea of fulfillment of thelema just doesn't fit me. And for the same reasons, nor does the concept of an astral library from which ideas are drawn. However, I do agree that all artists are, for their entire creative lives, on a journey where they either choose to evolve and grow from their previous work or not, and the whole of our experience as artists and as people brings us to where we are. What I don't believe is that there is a purpose, goal, or achievement of enlightenment at the end of this journey. Toby (numbers reflect responses below): I guess I have to clarify. I never said anything about right or wrong, what should or should not go somewhere in music or any other kind of art. (1) Thelema is just your will, it's not a mandate by any sort of cosmic judge, it's just finding who you truly are. Byron can clarify more if I'm fucking this up, but use for example, a person who tries to follow Christianity because he for some reason believes it's what he's supposed to do, but if his true self, his true will, his thelema is that he is absolutely not a Christian, if he follows his true self, he'll abandon what he's not (in this case, Christianity) and in that abandonment will feel freer than he ever has before, he's freed himself and given in to his will, his self. That to me is what thelema is. In this definition how can it not relate to music, unless the music you're making is some bullshit laundry detergent jingle? Not to mention that the idea of the "astral library" is symbolic only. There of course is no literal astral library - the "astral" in that phrase just refers to a higher plane, or creativity, and the "library" is just the creativity upon which you draw. There are no shelves, no books. (2) The transmutability of art in the process of its creation is merely a perfect representation of the fact that pure creative energy exists (astral), and each human who interacts with creative energy injects some of his personality into it. Therefore art is beautiful because it's the union of the "astral" or the higher, and the human, the lower. Union of higher and lower = enlightenment. (3) Sam: (1) But what you were talking about with thelema is that you are somehow making "mistakes" that build towards your current self. And your metaphor regarding Christianity implies that this person has erred by choosing Christianity, and he then later makes the right choice by abandoning it, thereby getting closer to his true self. In life, I think you rarely get an opportunity to find out whether you've made a correct decision. (An exception maybe being, "I decided not to get on that airplane, and then it blew up. Oh, and I don't have a death wish.") Maybe the guy abandons Christianity one day, but the next he would have had a deep religious experience, confirmed his faith, and lived a life of peace, confidence, comfort and goodwill towards man until he died in his sleep and went directly to Heaven, or whatever. Who can say? To me, that still implies that their is something "true" that you are supposed to become. It doesn't matter if that comes from inside yourself or from a higher power or whatever, it's still something I don't believe in. (2) Yeah, I realize that. I never took you literally. But when you speak about "finding" music instead of "writing" it - it certainly would give the impression that it existed, however you want to name it or visualize it, before you came along. (3) Our difference just comes down to the fact that I don't really believe in some unseen force of creativity. I believe creativity is something all humans have, however, so in a sense we're talking about the same thing, but with different vocabulary and different connotations. I just don't like the idea that all artists are interacting with a common force to produce what they do. And I definitely disagree with the whole concept of enlightenment through interaction with this common force. Again, that seems to say that you are "truer" for having experienced it - and I don't think there's any such thing as a "true self". Exposé: ok y'all, this is the last section I wanted to cover, and I will do this in two parts, one for Bath one for Leaving Your Body Map. I want to keep this somewhat open-ended in order not to try to pin things down too much, but I'd like to talk about two of the tracks from each album. I'm looking for impressions, insights, and basically anything you want to share about the creation, live play and understanding of: "Heaven & Weak" Toby: A lot of people have mentioned that this one is their favorite song on Bath. To me, it's exemplary of motW's sound up to this point. There are just a few songs that I would consider to have "every" element of motW in them, "Heaven &Weak" is one, the others are "Ferocious Weights," and "The Curve that to An Angle Turn'd." This is a really arrogant song as well. To put it very basically, it's saying "I'm better than you." I want to point out that this arrogance isn't a bad thing in this case, because it's just one of the many emotions that motW touches on; this song is one of arrogance and smugness. I wrote most of this song in Baltimore, around Christmas-New Year's 1999-2000. Josh was trying to sleep while I was messing with it. Byron: I don't know if it really sounds like it, but the beginning reminds me of The Princess Bride. It's very inspirational for me. I wrote a poem this past summer, and that was part of my inspiration for it. The first lyric verse is my favourite, too. For me, it's not the actual meaning of the words that makes it as much as the sounds of the words, and the images they convey. That also inspired a train of thought in my mind as to the means of communicating ideas and emotions through ambiguous symbols, and word sound and association. Hmm...I guess I like it...! Josh: I can't really say much about "Heaven & Weak," except that there is an earlier demo version which has a different intro (lyrics and slightly different music) that I enjoy more than the album version - I was VERY attached to it, so it was a bit difficult to adjust to the change. I love to play it live, though it has never worked out quite as well as it deserves; the dynamics in the beginning are hard to fine-tune with big loud amps. Terran: This is definitely one of my favorite motW songs. I like every part of it and the contrast between the different sections. It took us a little while before we started playing this one live, because we had to figure out what to do about the cellos at the beginning. We ended up having the cello line start on guitar and then shift to piano as the other guitar parts come in. We've talked a few times about maybe working out an acoustic set, and if we ever do that "Heaven and Weak" is at the top of my list of songs that I think could come out really well translated into an acoustic arrangement. Greg: I didn't write this or any of the other songs that are referenced so I guess my reflections on them creatively would have to be on my only input which was the solos I added. I would say "Heaven and Weak" was really one of the surprise tracks for me for what I am capable of. I guess as much as I tried in the past to be a speedy solo player I have always been rather sloppy at it but I came from a more melodic background thanks in part to my first teacher who stressed melodic control and expression rather than speed. In "Heaven and Weak," the section where I eventually put my solo just inspired me so much with Toby's vocals, and the keyboards and the whole epic feeling of it that I wanted a very controlled, melodic, moving solo which could blend in and not detract too much. I felt it was one of the best of the written solos I did on the albums and something I am very proud of. As for playing live it is a cool song to play live, although I will always remember it as the song where I broke my string for the first time during a show, which is why I try to play the heavy section a little less aggressively nowadays. "Girl with a Watering Can" Toby: I think this one is my favorite song on Bath. This one is a heavily reworked version of a song from the Haunted Oak demo called "The Bleeding Month," which was a little more tech (it was faux tech) and had only death vocals. The old version I don't like so much. This song is about the loss of innocence, and the bleakness in realizing that the magical eyes you saw through when you were a child just keep closing and really don't ever re-open. Fortunately, however, we follow this song on the album with "Birth Pains of Astral Projection," which is a solution to the sentiment in "Girl..." - being that you can re-open those eyes via other means. Byron: I hate this song. I'm just kidding. I really can't add much, other than it's my personal definition for that painting. Terran: I'm going to try not to put words into Byron's mouth, but I do know that the title of this song is also the title of an impressionist painting, which at least to some extent inspired the lyrics. What I get from it is that the Girl is this idealization of innocence and purity that you grew up believing in, but then found out that things just don't work like that. You're looking at the painting and it makes your stomach drop because you realize that that purity just doesn't exist in reality. This song also has a part that was referred to as the "baroque-sounding riff" when we were working on the maps - that first heavy part, underneath Maria singing "Bitterness is all God hath created..." That section is one of my favorite moments on the entire project. Josh: A funny thing about "Girl" is that when I read the lyrics, I thought it was very clear that it was about being rejected by someone you love (worship even), with the water in the watering can symbolizing love. Apparently that was not at all what Byron was thinking, but it seems so obvious a connection to make that I wonder if it didn't sort of work it's way in there subconsciously. Greg: If anything this song is probably one of my favorites on the albums just because of the range of emotion present in it and especially in Maria's vocal performance which almost brings me to tears when I hear it. As for the creation of it, this will always remind me of the atmosphere of comfort that Jim, our engineer, brought to the recording. I had basically written half of my solo for it which I proceeded to do, and after getting all the layers of harmony guitars for it done, it was time to do the second section which was all going to be improvised. After three or four takes of being frustrated, Jim said to have us take a break and clear our heads. We came back ten minutes later, tweaked the sound a bit and one take later the solo was done. Aside from a couple awkward notes, it was one that really translated well because it was one of those times where you have no previously written material so you go on just raw emotion. In this case it worked out really well. Again it is one of my favorites to do live just because I feel it has a feel to it which really grabs the audience and translates well to setting the mood of a show. "Bizarre Flowers/A Violent Mist" Josh: "Bizarre Flowers" I don't have much to say about, it's not one of my favorites since I don't really listen to any doom, and it's definitely a lumbering doom composition. The noise section is fun, though, and I love the random funk break at the end. Greg: The main thing I remember is setting up four amps in the studio and Toby, Josh, Sam and I just cranking up and going nuts on guitar all at once for the middle section of the song. It was awesome! "Riseth He, The Numberless" (why over two tracks?) Terran: I know that Toby doesn't get too excited about this song because he wrote it so long ago, but the thing about it is it's really fun to play. It's great for live shows because it's something that's easy for everyone to get into - we all get psyched playing it (which is always good for performance), and because it's one of the more straightforward songs, it's easy for the audience to get into even if they haven't already heard the albums. And hopefully Byron will elaborate, but I know lyrically this is sort of part two of the story that starts with "A Conception Pathetic." Josh: "Riseth He" is one of my favorites to play, it's easy enough that you don't really have to concentrate too hard, and it's LOADED with energy. I also agree with Terran that due to its straightforward nature, it is easier for people who haven't already heard us to get into. Toby: These two, aside from "Girl With a Watering Can," are the two other tracks on Bath/Leaving Your Body Map that are re-recorded versions of songs that appeared on the Haunted Oak demo. The difference between these two songs and "Girl," though, is that these appear in virtually the same form that they were on the demo (not too many changes). Being the oldest songs on the disc they are also my least favorite. I don't really have anything too deep to say about either of these songs, as they were written in 1997 and to me they reflect that, they're more "songs" than the more recent motW stuff, and aren't really exemplary of the "channeled" music that I've been talking about this whole time. The human influence is more prevalent in these, I can hear a 19-year old sitting in his basement writing music, the whole while keeping in mind the bands he really likes at the time, My Dying Bride and TIAMAT, most notably. Lyrically, Byron can shed more light on this for you than I can, but "Bizarre Flowers / A Violent Mist" is generally about a beautiful garden that lures you in and kills you with its poison vapors, but it's not a painful death, more a psychedelic and beautiful one. I have to note here that the whole notion of a garden is something that is really evocative for I know myself and Byron at the very least, but it's difficult to explain why. Flowers, plants, gardens, it's an icon of our personalities. We also talked for a while about when we play BF/AVM live, we can have huge fans blowing poison vapor into the audience ... imagine an entire audience choking on a hallucinogenic vapor while we play the noise section in the middle of that song. haha! Um, anyway, "Riseth He, The Numberless" was originally called "Banquet of Dis" (and I'll give 1000 points to any of your readers who email me and tell me what that title is from). When we became more serious about motW, we changed the lyrics and the title, and the middle section just slightly. The sample in the middle is from the same "session" that track eight on My Fruit Psychobells is. We recorded that out in a field in Amherst, MA in freezing cold night and blustery wind, and just screamed our heads off from really far away, and kept screaming as we slowly drew closer to the tape recorder, which was resting on a dirt path coming just out of the woods. It was truly a black metal moment ;). Anyhow the reason it's two tracks is mainly to balance out the interludes on both discs (both being tracks 4 and 9), and to give the albums the same number of tracks (10 per disc). Greg: I think Toby has already mentioned why the two tracks are present. But this song just rocks. It is a perfect song for playing live as it really goes over well I think and it is a ton of fun to play. I know that Byron is now experimenting with new ways of writing lyrics and trying to communicate pure emotion in his lyrics but when he wants he can be an amazing storyteller and this song is an example of that.